Central to the idea of Protestant Christianity (and perhaps Catholics, I'm not sure) is that we are all sinners and were doomed to hell. Then, Jesus died on the cross and "paid the price" so we could have a chance at eternal life.
However, how could one person's suffering pay the price for someone else's sin?
If I murder someone, can I have my son go to jail for me? Or my parents even? No, if I commit a wrongdoing, then I am the one who has to pay. No one else can "pay the price" for my wrongdoing. If someone else is willing to suffer for me, that doesn't somehow magically get me off the hook.
Imagine if the judge would allow someone else to do my sentence for me. I get convicted and he says, "Okay, your mother can go to jail instead if she likes." If the judge accepted my mother going to jail instead of me for what I did wrong, that would make the judge a bad person. He would be saying, essentially, "I don't care who suffers for this wrong act, as long as someone does." Surely, this is not a good judge.
A good person would make sure that the person who suffers is the one who committed the crime. If someone else suffers, that does not somehow absolve the other person of their wrongdoing.
A good person would not accept stand-in justice. Stand-in justice is when person A does a wrong act but person B suffers because of person A's wrong act.
So, how is it that Jesus paid the price for my sins?
One may say that God decided that Jesus' suffering was sufficient to pay the price. However, that makes God evil. If the judge in my hypothetical story accepted my mother going to jail as sufficient, then that would make him a bad person. The same goes for God.
So, if God is good (and Christians say he is) then God would not accept Jesus' suffering as sufficient to pay for our sins. Only our own suffering would be sufficient.
One may say that God is being merciful to us because Jesus had to suffer. However, notice how that response doesn't work in my hypothetical scenario. If the judge saw my mom go to jail, he wouldn't be allowed to say, "Hey, okay she suffered so I can be merciful to you. If she didn't go to jail for you, then I couldn't be merciful to you." Surely, this does not work.
So, in conclusion, Jesus could not have paid the price for my sins. That is because only the person who commits the sin can pay the price for it. If someone accepts stand-in justice (like if someone accepted my mom going to jail for my wrongdoing) then that would make them a bad person. Since God is supposed to be a good person, he would not accept Jesus' suffering as sufficient for paying the price for my sins.
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Happy Hour
1 hour ago
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You assume accepting "stand-in" justice is bad. Why do you assume us humans(with our bad nature) created a good justice system. Surely you would agree our system is flawed in many ways. You are basically saying human judges are more moral than God.
In a parable Jesus mentions a debtor owing money to a lendor. Surely another man may pay the debt of the debtor.
In the OT God created in effect created stand-in justice in the OT laws of sacrifice. Jesus was simply the ultimate sacrifice.
I think the fact that we often care so much about whether the accussed committed the crime or not shows that stand-in justice is wrong. For example, why would we care about things like fair trial by jury, appeals, and the principle "guilty until proven innocent?"
Sure, it could be that we shouldn't care about these things, that we should just punish any person who's willing to be punished, but that would be a terribly difficult thing to prove.
I think that we created a good justice system insofar as it agrees with the correct principles of morality. I believe one of them is to punish only the person who committed the crime. Anyone who would accept a person's offering of suffering to pay for another's sin is evil because in doing so, he would be saying, "I don't care who suffers for this crime, as long as somebody does."
I think it is a correct principle of morality to seek the wrondoer and make sure that we punish him (and only him). It is difficult to explain the other principles of morality that are surely correct (guilty until proven innocent, trial by jury, etc.) unless we posit this principle.
Do u mean "innocent until proven guilty?"
It seems to me that you base your morality of justice on what works. But i think you know that our system is flawed in some ways and have even convicted innocent ppl.
However, assuming God is omniscient and perfect, he would have no need for "innocent until proven guilty", or "trial by jury", etc.
Also, you say it is like, "I don't care who suffers for this crime, as long as somebody does." But what if he is unable to pay for the crime? We accept stand-in justice for money(in fact sometimes we demand it), so why not other things?
As Spinoza(i think it was him) said something like, you can only explain the bible with the bible. So you forgot about the justice system that God himself created in the Old Testament which would allow for "stand-in justice".
i hope i dont sound too stupid. =\
btw i posted the first one.
Yes, I mean "innocent until proven guilty." Yes, I do believe that our justice system isn't perfect, some innocent people have been convicted and some guilty people have failed to be convicted.
It is also true that God would have no need for trial by jury or the principle of innocent until proven guilty. My argument doesn't assume that he needs to follow these principles. It only assumes that it's good for us or that we need to follow these principles. This is because it is wrong to convict an innocent person. How can it be wrong to convict an innocent person if it's not wrong to punish someone who didn't commit the crime. The view seems incoherent to me.
I agree we accept stand-in justice for money. However, money is transferrable and can benefit other people by giving it to others. They have a use for it and it's not wrong to want to use money. However, suffering doesn't seem to have the same properties. I can't "give" someone else my suffering. They can't "use" my suffering to get what they want. So, even though money can be used as a reparation for wrongdoing, that hardly proves that suffering can be as well.
As far as only being able to explain the Bible with the Bible, I'm just attempting to understand how stand-in justice could be acceptable. The Bible only says that it is, not how it is.
First of all I have the answer and its clear and straight, I know its long but yeah read it.
There is no stand in justice and the Bible never says there is. How can you expect to make this clear without scriptural texts?
"For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." Eccl 12:14
So just to make that clear.
Another thing people don't realize is that sin is inherited, not even babies are innocent, children especially are the most manipulative creatures alive. Sure they are great and super nice, but the point is they are not perfect.
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come. (Jesus)" Rom 5:12-14
Are thoughts and thinking patterns exists in our neurons, so if one makes a decision againsts what is beneficial, perhaps this changes ones mental make up and then like a degeneranting cookie cutter we live. But this is just my personal theory of sin.
Sin is disobedience to comply to that which is most beneficial to your life. "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk." Isaiah 48:17
Eve, the bible tells us was thoroughly deceived, but that Adam was not, he committed outright revolt. Therefore as already stated to him, if he sinned he would have to die Gen 2:17. Now since, "the wages sin pays is death", once someone dies, they actually pay off all their debt (which is why eternal torment is a lie), but cannot except through mercy be brought back. Remember it said that Jesus had the resemblance of Adam, meaning that he was perfect just like Adam had been. So as already outlined the wages sin pays is death, and remember he says of himself "I am Holy, Holy, Holy", just try to imagine the mind of a perfect God, always having perfect thoughts, anything besides what is good (beneficial) is abhorrent to him, so also since sin is 'inherited' no imperfect mans blood can pay the price of Adam's perfect blood. We are a vineyard, it is all contaminated.
Jesus does not pay for your sins, he bears them. Understand that blood is sacred.
“As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people. For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for YOU to make atonement for YOUR souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul [in it]. That is why I have said to the sons of Israel: “No soul of YOU must eat blood and no alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst should eat blood.” Lev 17:10-12. Many people confuse soul with spirit, but the soul is the person itself, flesh and spirit Gen 2:7. Lev 17:10-12
“What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground (crying out for justice)..." Gen 4:10
That is why the blood of rams and goats and sheep were only temporary payments, and why Christians do not have to make sacrifices of atonement since Jesus's blood was perfect.
The most important thing to remember is that people going around telling you to say a prayer and your saved forever are workers of Satan.
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." Matt 7:21-23
Also his blood is only meant to give you a fighting chance, because no man can earn his salvation through good works, no matter how many. Only through faith in Gods promise to show you mercy can we be saved. But do not forget... "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26 And since "the body of YOU people (Christian congregation) is [the] temple", keep it holy.
"Now we know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become liable to God for punishment. Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin." Roms 3:19, 20
"What, then, was the fruit that YOU used to have at that time? Things of which YOU are now ashamed. For the end of those things is death. However, now, because YOU were set free from sin but became slaves to God, YOU are having YOUR fruit in the way of holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
Most importantly is the following text...
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition."
So in conclusion, what means everlasting life for humans?
"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." John 17:3
"For in loving-kindness I have taken delight, and not in sacrifice; and in the knowledge of God rather than in whole burnt offerings" Hosea 6:6
"I wany mercy, and not sacrifice." Matt 9:13
If you believe the Trinity, then the ransom sacrifice doesn't make sense, since it requires the death of someone as payment, and God cannot die Habakkuk 1:12. But it does show the foresight of God in creating man as free moral agents and as having a son ready just in case.
“For this is what Jehovah has said to the house of Israel, ‘Search for me, and keep living..." Amos 5:4
"As for Jehovah, he has looked down from heaven itself upon the sons of men,
To see whether there exists anyone having insight, anyone seeking Jehovah." Psalms 14:2
I know there is some extraneous information, but its always important to add personality to perfection.
I know someone might want to argue about the Trinity and Eternal Hell so please let us go to 'the low plain of the decision'. Lets get some good arguments going. Ask me anything and I can give a satisfying answer. Quotations taken from The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
Whoops forgot the closer. John 3:16. “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."
'Exercising' faith, which means being able to scientifically prove what you believe to yourself and to a reasonable person, and telling others about what you've heard.
'Cause God says you are only responsible to warn people about him and then their blood is off your hands. Ezekiel 3:17-21, 1 Peter 3:15
"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." Heb 11:1
Is it just for the innocent in a car accident to willingly forgive the guilty and pay for the repairs himself? Biblically, Jesus' death ... his punishment on our behalf ... should be thought of more in this way, as a debt he and only he could pay (ie, "the wages of sin is death").
Also, is it not just for the law maker to willingly bear the penalty of his law should he choose too? God didn't just pick some poor innocent schmuck to bear the penalty of sin for his people, but rather subjects himself.
For at least these two reasons, it seems perfectly just for God to pay the price for my sin, no?
I would like to say a something pertaining to the if you pray your sins are forgivin
Well yes you are the very second you ask of him
god forgives you. If not this would be indictive of doing some extra act by which the forgiveness and acceptance.
The woman at the well had sin
But jesus said go and sin no more...
David we all know his issues but god said he was a man after his own heart.
The problem is not weather God ( THE WORD WHO WE CALL JESUS ) he has forgiving us its that once the seed is sown satan comes to steal the seed sown.
Satan would have you think that you need to do more than just ask and he also would have you think god is keeping score when he is not
in fact the bible tells us that god throws the sin to a place that even he cant find it and remebers it no more ( Im paraphrasing but I will locate it and repost when I locate it )
As far as the the wages of sin is death
but are you aware there is whats called the second death
. " The smoke of there torment asendeth up for ever and ever. This line in revelation does not mention anything of the smoke of torment ending
unless Im missing something
I guess As humans its very hard to imagine a perfect world with no sin what so ever but on the same token we cant imagine a world of total suffering. The reason for this is because the brain is design to choose. The mouth signs the Contract of choice
Once we leave this realm the choice is made
Satan himself when he was lucifer had a choice
he chose himself but for some reason he now wants everyone else with him. Of course all of what i say is just how I believe I cant proove anything to anyone. But as for me If I was to follow the old law
I would stand guilty of it as I have broken at least one law. So I would have to find the blood of Bulls and goats or make an atonment. But would my sins really be washed away blotted out ..The bull did not do it in fact the bull cant even as if he is willing to suffer for me...
According to the new covenant the issue of sin is still present however the blood of a bull and goat is not needed. The one called jesus who is identified as the God himself and the Word itself became a man with the whole purpose of using his own blood in the place of the bulls blood or goats
The only thing i have to do is choose and accept that sin debt as paid and then live acordingly
In closing lets make it real lets say that you murderd someone and someone just with out you deciding said to the courts I will bare his penalty
Let him go and lets say the court for what ever reason agreed to it... and the person died in your place and just before he did he said..." I just want you to remember me and that I love you so much that i could not stand to see you die"
and then the person assumed your punishement was killed...
How would you feel Well as for me this a true story
Jesus Died for me. ( No i murderd no one but then again my sins did )
Question for thought.....
What is the difference of these phrases:
" HE WAS PUT TO DEATH"
" HE WAS MURDERD"
" HE WAS KILLED"
FUNNY HOW A CRIMINAL MURDERS PPL AND EVEN KILLS PPL BUT THE COURTS PUT THEM TO DEATH
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